Issues/query about noise using 200 -600 lens on A1

[Brian Scantlebury]

Hi there, hoping someone will be able to help me with this concern.
I have just acquired the 200-600 sony lens.
Shooting in good light at ISO 100 @ 600 mm, I'm finding noise in my subjects.
Will upload a couple of examples and appreciate any answers/guidance.
Below are 2 images, one a crop. of full size showing the noise clearly, repeated for sparrow, and seagull.
Distance, sparrow; approx 54 meters, seagull, approx 30 meters from camera.
OTHER SETTINGS; MODE 1, OSS ON,FULL, AF
CAMERA A!

• ILCE-1
• FE 200-600mm F5.6-6.3 G OSS
• 600.0 mm
• ƒ/6.3
• 1/1600 sec
• ISO 100

• ILCE-1
• FE 200-600mm F5.6-6.3 G OSS
• 600.0 mm
• ƒ/6.3
• 1/1600 sec
• ISO 100

• ILCE-1
• FE 200-600mm F5.6-6.3 G OSS
• 600.0 mm
• ƒ/6.3
• 1/1600 sec
• ISO 100

• ILCE-1
• FE 200-600mm F5.6-6.3 G OSS
• 600.0 mm
• ƒ/6.3
• 1/1600 sec
• ISO 100

 

[Deleted Member 5003]

the images especially the sparrow seem to have a good level of detail but are soft generally.....maybe due to a degree of hand shake
or movement of the essentially static images you have presented.

Try upping your shutter speed a tad this might sharpen up your images....at Iso 100 you have some headroom to do this

 

[Brian Scantlebury]

the images especially the sparrow seem to have a good level of detail but are soft generally.....maybe due to a degree of hand shake
or movement of the essentially static images you have presented.

Try upping your shutter speed a tad this might sharpen up your images....at Iso 100 you have some headroom to do this

Thank you, appreciated.

 

[Brian Scantlebury]

A shutter speed of 1/1600 on a 600mm lens along with 5 stops of IS is WAY more than enough for a sharp image.

Noise happens. Zooming in 500% and checking pixels is going to disappoint you every time if you're expecting zero noise. You could try to ETTR to defeat some of the noise, but be careful, some of the highlights on the tree and gulls are already close to blown. They could be pulled back some as it is, so don't overdo it.

I wouldn't go by the enlarged crops. They are so over-cropped all of the detail is gone. If you need to go to that extent to be dissatisfied, ask yourself if anyone is ever going to view your shot under those circumstances?

There's an old joke:

Patient: "Hey Doc, it hurts when I go like that."
Doc: "Don't go like that."

Oddly enough there's a thread right now about noise:

Talk about iso noise and useable levels

Ok just recently I have had several members comment about shots I have posted, basically saying nice shot given the high iso, now I only shoot uncompressed raw and 24 megapixel so I think I know what works for my 2 e-mount camera bodies and for the a99ii I use. I do use topaz ai on some images...

www.alphashooters.com

Thank you. Would agree with you but the zoom is only to 100%. I feel I should not be getting that level of noise with gear of this quality. Are my expectations too high?
hope not because that might say something about Sony gear which I have used very happily now since they took over Minolta. Clearly the A1 is relatively new and the 200-600 is brand new.

 

[Brian Scantlebury]

Obviously my reference to 500% was to overstate the extreme crop.

Some questions: Are those images SOOC? Are they jpegs from the camera or did you shoot RAW and process? If so, did you bring the EV up in post due to underexposure? Based on your settings, your EV should be somewhere around 16-ish, which is fairly high. Maybe cut the shutter speed in half and get a lower EV. For that matter, you could probably bump ISO and pick up a stop or two, which could reduce noise. Sounds counterintuitive, but it may help. I'd try to get the EV down some and see if that helps.

Here's the latitude comparison widget from DPR's review of the A-1. You can play with these, change EV, etc. Note how the default EV of +6 is a lot noisier than when you set it lower on the widget. Your EV is around +16 if I'm figuring right. Based on that I think you did pretty well noise-wise.

Image comparison: Digital Photography Review

This image was made on an A7-IV, same lens, cropped heavier than I'd like, ISO 400, f/6.3, shutter 1/640, handheld. There has been no NR applied.

DSC01855 by telecast, on Flickr

I set the A7-IV at ISO 400 because with it's dual-range sensor, ISO 400 is about the same as ISO 126 with regard to noise, but I've gained 2 stops. The resulting EV is around +14.

The A1 has a dual range sensor as well, but has it's second sweet spot at ISO 500. Like the 7-IV, the second spot equals about ISO 126. So, you can set your camera at ISO 500, gain 2-1/2 stops, which allows you to lower your EV, which should reduce noise.

View attachment 24939

Here's a link to the site if you want to play around:

Read Noise in DNs versus ISO Setting

Edit:

I found this exposure calculator that lets you compare two settings. Your settings do indeed calculate to +16. By changing the ISO to 500 and shutter to 1/800, you drop the EV to +12.67. That's pretty good!

Equivalent Exposure Calculator, or Compare Any Two Camera Exposures

Find an Equivalent Exposure. Or how many stops difference? What are the EV numbers? Calculator computes the difference in any two camera exposures.

scantips.com

Thank you for all that. Given me a lot to play with. The issue for me seems to lie somewhere in my expectations for the 200-600 lens. Although I didn't do a comparative shoot with say 70-200 2.8 I would not have expected that outcome, even with 2x convertor.
Those shots were shot in RAW, they were not SOOC though, had pushed EV via exposure in lightroom Will spend some time on those links and tools you linked into your helpful reply.
Much appreciated.

 

[Brian Scantlebury]

Don't blame the lens just yet. The lens isn't going to add noise other than what the limited open aperture causes, and there are workarounds. That is a stellar lens, there are people who post insanely good photos made with them. @spudhead is an example. Look around the site and see some examples.

Thanks for your encouragement, and the link. Impressive all right.

 

[Brian Scantlebury]

the images especially the sparrow seem to have a good level of detail but are soft generally.....maybe due to a degree of hand shake
or movement of the essentially static images you have presented.

Try upping your shutter speed a tad this might sharpen up your images....at Iso 100 you have some headroom to do this

Thanks for your help. Appreciated

 

[spudhead]

Thanks for your encouragement, and the link. Impressive all right.

Hi I will jump in here and ask if you can tell us what your focus settings you are using? as lens is very capable its just finding the balance between camera and lens, also are you new to the a1 if so its going to take time to dial the pair in. There are other members who use the a1 and can help with that if needed.

 

[Brian Scantlebury]

Hi I will jump in here and ask if you can tell us what your focus settings you are using? as lens is very capable its just finding the balance between camera and lens, also are you new to the a1 if so its going to take time to dial the pair in. There are other members who use the a1 and can help with that if needed.

Thank you. For those shots AF-C, Low speed continuous, Shutter priority.
I have had the A1 for nearly a year now. Taken about 8,000 shots. The new item is the 200-600.
When you say "dial the pair in" are you referring finding the combo that works best, or is there some "settling in" the gear gas to do?

I have followed a number of Sony ambassadors too and am always looking to pick up tips from a number of sources.

 

[spudhead]

Thank you. For those shots AF-C, Low speed continuous, Shutter priority.
I have had the A1 for nearly a year now. Taken about 8,000 shots. The new item is the 200-600.
When you say "dial the pair in" are you referring finding the combo that works best, or is there some "settling in" the gear gas to do?

I have followed a number of Sony ambassadors too and am always looking to pick up tips from a number of sources.

Ok so you have more lenses? do they give you issues? back to your setup focus point I use generally large flexible spot, I only shoot manual 99 percent of the time and auto iso topped out at 10,000 and if shooting long range would like the shutter as near a 2,000 as possible and lens switch set to 2. It's unlikely to be the lens that is the issue it took a little while for me to hand hold the lens and get sharp shots and I have heavy prime lenses.

 

[Brian Scantlebury]

Ok so you have more lenses? do they give you issues? back to your setup focus point I use generally large flexible spot, I only shoot manual 99 percent of the time and auto iso topped out at 10,000 and if shooting long range would like the shutter as near a 2,000 as possible and lens switch set to 2. It's unlikely to be the lens that is the issue it took a little while for me to hand hold the lens and get sharp shots and I have heavy prime lenses.

Thank you again, other lenses dont tend to show that noise 100% on 100 ISO
But will try changing some of my settings as you suggest and see what I can achieve before commenting/thing further. However, I did have auto iso topped at 10,000 a while ago (not for this lens, for 70-200+2x, but that gave me too much noise, even around 1000 iso i am not comfortable unless there's a whole matrix of favourable conditions. Mostly a background that is just right and spot on conditions.
Thanks again for your input. Will continue to play using your good points to guide me.
Regards

 

[spudhead]

Thank you again, other lenses dont tend to show that noise 100% on 100 ISO
But will try changing some of my settings as you suggest and see what I can achieve before commenting/thing further. However, I did have auto iso topped at 10,000 a while ago (not for this lens, for 70-200+2x, but that gave me too much noise, even around 1000 iso i am not comfortable unless there's a whole matrix of favourable conditions. Mostly a background that is just right and spot on conditions.
Thanks again for your input. Will continue to play using your good points to guide me.
Regards

I dont like auto iso but with the a9 in manual its the camera default so we have to manipulate things to get the desired result. loads of members on here have the 200-600 working well on most sony bodies. I assume you shoot raw? and have you tried denoising?

 

[spudhead]

See my long post and his response. He shot in RAW and pushed the EV in post. The biggest problem is shooting a high EV (+16) and then pushing. Needs to get the EV down.

I missed that Tim wow

 

[Brian Scantlebury]

I dont like auto iso but with the a9 in manual its the camera default so we have to manipulate things to get the desired result. loads of members on here have the 200-600 working well on most sony bodies. I assume you shoot raw? and have you tried denoising?

Hi again, and thank you. I do not turn on noise reduction in camera, but do manage it in Lightroom. Yes, shoot only in RAW. I guess it's going to be a matter of perhaps shooting with histogram ti right and then reduce ev in post. The trouble with noise reduction is that sometimes too much is required and of course the image becomes very soft. It's been an interesting exercise getting your input and the others.
If you look a Brownies replies (and he pointed me to your images), there's a graph showing that. by my interpretation, that 500 ISO would be better than anything else above 125.

 

[spudhead]

Hi again, and thank you. I do not turn on noise reduction in camera, but do manage it in Lightroom. Yes, shoot only in RAW. I guess it's going to be a matter of perhaps shooting with histogram ti right and then reduce ev in post. The trouble with noise reduction is that sometimes too much is required and of course the image becomes very soft. It's been an interesting exercise getting your input and the others.
If you look a Brownies replies (and he pointed me to your images), there's a graph showing that. by my interpretation, that 500 ISO would be better than anything else above 125.

Brownie knows his stuff and I don't have the a1 but I am comfortable with up to 8,000-10,000 iso on the a7iii if the exposure is correct and happy with iso up to 6,400 iso on the a9 again if exposure is correct, you have the best Sony body available at the moment and trust me the 200-600 is awesome lens at its price point, please don't give up on the camera and lens like so many people do.