Just for kicks: How would you design the next Sony APS-C Camera?

[FowlersFreeTime]

With the announcement of the ZV-E10, Facebook and YouTube are alight with influencer reviews and thoughts on Sony's latest offering. Tim's news post if you missed it: https://www.alphashooters.com/community/threads/sony-announces-the-sony-zv-e10.2748/

So it made me think, if I could design Sony's next APSC, what would my wish list be?
I went to the opposite end of the spectrum (from the ZV-E10) going for a premium model, an A6700 if you will:

• Based on body of a6600 (same Z battery, continue without integrated flash)
• Keep the viewfinder but give us better resolution
• Keep the dedicated video button (on top) like the ZV-E10/FX3
• Use the zoom rocker switch from the FX3/ZV-E10 as another programable option since so many people want a "front dial"
• Same E-mount
• A higher megapixel APSC sensor (30-ish megapixels) would be nice
• IBIS and Active Stabilization that works with IBIS so the crop is minimal
• Multi-interface hot shoe from the ZV-E10/A7SIII/A7C/FX3
• Fully articulated touch screen from ZV-E10/A7SIII
• Product Feature focus mode from the ZV-E10

Might end up costing as much as an A7SIII, but a guy can dream can't he?
How would you spec your ideal APSC?

 

[FowlersFreeTime]

Now that the A7IV is about to be released, it checks all of those boxes, but in a full frame body.
Is it time to jump ship to the full frame eco-system? or will there be some innovation in the APSC line-up next year?
Thoughts anyone?

 

[Andrew]

Once you go Full Frame you won’t go back, pretty sure that’s the saying

 

[Uncle Kevriano]

I don't think Sony will make another APSC now. I missed your original post. I would want it to be bigger, I can't hold those tiny cameras!
I would say, yes, go Full Frame, especially for the kind of shooting you prefer, you won't miss the crop factor.

 

[Tim Mayo]

Now that the A7IV is about to be released, it checks all of those boxes, but in a full frame body.
Is it time to jump ship to the full frame eco-system? or will there be some innovation in the APSC line-up next year?
Thoughts anyone?

It soon gets expensive when you start adding full-frame lenses to the basket as well These days I typically only use my a6400 for travelling, otherwise I prefer the larger body with the additional controls that the full-frame cameras offer, plus better low-light performance and specs. There will definitely be a replacement for the a6100/a6400/a6600 cameras at some point, but I think Sony will hold a lot back to try and persuade people to spend the extra money on their full-frame gear.

 

[FowlersFreeTime]

There will definitely be a replacement for the a6100/a6400/a6600 cameras at some point, but I think Sony will hold a lot back to try and persuade people to spend the extra money on their full-frame gear.

I whole heartedly believe this.
Canon folks had the 90D and M6 mark 2 as their top of the line APSC cameras with 32mp, but they have a very broad lineup of cameras, and they didn't have great success with the M6II. Sony does not have as many cameras in its portfolio, and they seem unlikely to cater more towards the "APSC enthusiast" if they can make enough money from giving the bare minimum to the "vlogger" market with things like the ZVE10. So as much as I would hold out for a 30+mp APSC with IBIS, I might as well just get the A7IV when I have saved up enough money for it (by next Christmas LOL).

 

[Andrew]

So the APSC Market, I guess when the trade off between APSC vs average camera phone sensor come close to image quality (for the consumer not professional), it will become more of a push to professional equipment.

Although I suspect Sony, Nikon or Canon may already be making sensor for mobile phone platforms so the market loss is less than you think.

 

[Tim Mayo]

So the APSC Market, I guess when the trade off between APSC vs average camera phone sensor come close to image quality (for the consumer not professional), it will become more of a push to professional equipment.

Although I suspect Sony, Nikon or Canon may already be making sensor for mobile phone platforms so the market loss is less than you think.

Sony already have their Xperia line-up of mobile phones and on the 26th they will be unveiling the next Xperia that appears to be going after photographers and videographers. So maybe they are going to squeeze the 1" sensor from the RX100 series into an Xperia body? Or maybe even jump to an APS-C sensor! That would definitely be a first as I think there's already a phone camera with a 1" sensor. Although I've just replaced my 5 year old iPhone so I won't be changing that for a while now, unless I leave it on the car roof again and drive off

 

[FowlersFreeTime]

So the APSC Market, I guess when the trade off between APSC vs average camera phone sensor come close to image quality (for the consumer not professional), it will become more of a push to professional equipment.

Although I suspect Sony, Nikon or Canon may already be making sensor for mobile phone platforms so the market loss is less than you think.

I guess it comes down to how the photos/video will be used, (apologies in advance for my rambling but here goes):

• Scenario 1 - Social Media user
  • If the intent is to share pictures only on social media, its really a smartphone world, and on a mobile screen, you will have a harder time appreciating the difference between a cellphone camera, APSC or Full-Frame.
  • Likewise if you're creating vertical video for social or tik-tok, using anything more than a smartphone is overkill.
• Scenario 2 - Enthusiast
  • If you intend to print pictures, or share them on an enthusiast site like this, in my opinion: 1inch, Micro4/3, or APSC sensors become your starting point.
  • Likewise for video formats like YouTube/Vimeo, 1inch, Micro4/3, or APSC sensors become your starting point.
• Scenario 3 - Advanced Enthusiast & Professional level 1
  • If you intend to sell your pictures, or make images of this quality, its time for the upgrade to full-frame
  • Likewise if you're making video content that is monetized or has significant production value: full-frame
• Scenario 4 - Professional level 2
  • You are a professional photographer with experience in the field and in business, nothing else will do but the highest end Full Frame or even Medium format camera.
  • You are a professional videographer and have graduated from hybrid cameras into dedicated cinema cameras such as the FX6 or comparable.

All that just to say: I'm in scenario 2. I would like to be in scenario 3, but I'm not there yet. So I believe I am a good fit for the APSC target market. The APSC lineup made sense when it was a6100, a6400, a6600; a clear upgrade path. However, the ZV-E10 represents a new way of thinking, which will cannibalize market share from a6100 & a6400 buyers. Like @Kevriano said, I fear they will not innovate the high end APSC anymore, a theory supported by the presence of the A7C which is their gateway to full-frame.

 

[Jeff A]

Now that the A7IV is about to be released, it checks all of those boxes, but in a full frame body.
Is it time to jump ship to the full frame eco-system? or will there be some innovation in the APSC line-up next year?
Thoughts anyone?

There's room on this boat for more.

 

[FowlersFreeTime]

There's room on this boat for more.

I have started a new piggy bank just for this conundrum! I figure by the time I have saved up enough, I can either afford the A7IV or they will have brought out the newest APSC. If that [newer APSC] disappoints, then at least I would have saved up for the full frame upgrade.

 

[FowlersFreeTime]

Revisiting this old thread as Canon has announced their new EOS R7... and it has so much I want to see in an A6600 successor!

Canon EOS R7 First Impressions: The Performance King of APS-C

The Canon R7 has the best image quality we’ve seen from a crop-sensor camera.

petapixel.com

Come on Sony, catch up.

 

[Jeff A]

It's so hard to guess what will happen regarding new equipment when we have the continuing chip shortage. Why is there a chip shortage anyway? Did the chip manufacturers not see the demand coming? It's definitely time to see some new chip manufacturers join the fray. How many chip manufacturers are there in the US?

 

[FowlersFreeTime]

It's so hard to guess what will happen regarding new equipment when we have the continuing chip shortage. Why is there a chip shortage anyway? Did the chip manufacturers not see the demand coming? It's definitely time to see some new chip manufacturers join the fray. How many chip manufacturers are there in the US?

I think the chip shortage is really a "shortage of cheaply made chips from China".
As to your question about manufacturers in the USA... Is anything made in the US anymore? and if they [semiconductor chips] were made in the US, they would be too expensive for components in an already-increasingly-expensive product

 

[Uncle Kevriano]

Sony will have to come up with a direct competitor to the R7, it's a beast for the money.

 

[FowlersFreeTime]

Sony will have to come up with a direct competitor to the R7, it's a beast for the money.

Exactly Kev!
I don't think Sony's marketing and product development teams have caught on yet: Abandon the a6xxx line up, keep the ZVE10 to compete with the Canon R10, and then build an A7000 to compete with the Canon R7. There's no efficiency to offering products in between these lines.

 

[FowlersFreeTime]

I wouldn't say that. When you consider that Sony had both Canon and Nikon sucking hind tit when it comes to mirrorless and the fact that Sony itself is one of the largest electronics companies in the world. not to mention movies, music, and all of their other interests, I'd say they know exactly what they're doing. We may not necessarily agree with it, but they know.

I dunno Tim, they didn't think these models were profitable enough to reserve chips for them and so they paused production of these cameras. Meh, who knows, as you said we don't know all the facts they do.

 

[Jeff A]

Well I'm sure they're profitable, but not as profitable as the A1, A9, A7R-IV, and at that time the newly released A7-IV. How would it look if they released a brand new camera and then couldn't ship any in favor of their older lines? Don't forget they had hit a massive home run with the A7 III and they needed to maintain that momentum. If you check B&H you'll find the A7-IV is still a #1 seller 5 months later, so something had to act as the temporary sacrificial lamb. If I'm not mistaken the A7-C was also suspended, and the 7 II series was (finally and mercifully) stopped altogether.

But if we want to consider what's profitable to Sony within their model line then we have to make the same comparisons with Canon and Nikon. It'd be difficult for me to believe that Sony's profit margin on APS-C is all that much different than the others. During this same period Nikon completely did away with many of their APS-C DSLRs. I'm sure that had a lot to do with the fact that they were DSLRs to begin with, but we should apply the same reasoning. The Z series is far more important to them than those older bodies, so in the face of shortages something had to give.

As I've stated in other threads I think Sony aims to compete with Fuji in APS-C, hence the rangefinder style bodies. They're content to keep Canon and Nikon hopping with FF Mirrorless as well they should. They've taken over the #2 spot from Nikon, who has sunk way down in terms of overall sales. Canon continues to hold the lead, but most reports I see include all camera sales, including P-n-S and compacts, so not sure how the ILCs stack up. Sony is still the #1 selling mirrorless.

But to answer your OP: An A7-IV but with an APS-C sensor. That would be about the same resolution as an A7R-IV in crop mode but with the improved focus features. The crop sensor would also allow for better reach, stabilization, and faster shutter speeds. They could sell this for $1200-$1600 because the R&D money was spent on the A7-IV. I'd like to see it with a 26-28MP sensor, but that may be too close to the A7-IV.

Tim, I found your Sales Stats interesting. What is your source for these stats? I'd like to Bookmark that for future reference.

 

[spudhead]

I think the chip shortage is really a "shortage of cheaply made chips from China".
As to your question about manufacturers in the USA... Is anything made in the US anymore? and if they [semiconductor chips] were made in the US, they would be too expensive for components in an already-increasingly-expensive product

I do not know what Sonys issue is with chips, but my cousin here in the Uk has a small electronics company using hundreds of chips a day and they build for large and small companies all over the world and they have massive issues getting chips from anywhere at any cost. some chips that were a couple of pounds are now hundreds of pounds, its not just the Covid shut downs its also some smart people out there have bought up world stocks and are now selling at crazy prices . Some chips have lead times of 2 years now and some of the stuff the pcb boards they make go in are for life saving kit, they built all the way through Covid and opened for up to 16 hours a day 7 days a week because they were key to pcb boards for medical kit, another issue is the cost of shipping I am told that shipping a container to the UK is now 10 times the cost of pre Covid. And in fact its not just chips it all the electronics components are so much more costly and in short supply and they use hundreds of thousands of those a year. So I guess Sony are doing what they can and nothing will change anytime soon given other world factors and huge costs of power etc and raw materials we all face now.

 

[AlphaWorld]

Revisiting this old thread as Canon has announced their new EOS R7... and it has so much I want to see in an A6600 successor!

Canon EOS R7 First Impressions: The Performance King of APS-C

The Canon R7 has the best image quality we’ve seen from a crop-sensor camera.

petapixel.com

Come on Sony, catch up.

They announced the R10 and the R7, and the A6600 slots in nicely between them.

The R7 is a bit heavy for APS-C, and the tiny sensor looks kind of silly in the middle of that enormous mount.

 

[FowlersFreeTime]

They announced the R10 and the R7, and the A6600 slots in nicely between them.

The R7 is a bit heavy for APS-C, and the tiny sensor looks kind of silly in the middle of that enormous mount.

I remember seeing a review of the IBIS in the a6600, it seems to work some for photos but doesn't do much for video, so I think the a6600 successor could do with a slightly larger body if it means better IBIS.

 

[FowlersFreeTime]

Here you go, @FowlersFreeTime! They've resumed production on the A6400. I'm sure others will follow.

Sony is back producing the A6400! – sonyalpharumors

www.sonyalpharumors.com

yay APSC is not dead!

 

[FowlersFreeTime]

HOLY COW!

Fuji just released the camera I described. 26MP APS-C full size body. A little heavy in video for me but that seems to be the way things are these days. Check out the video link. 7 (count 'em: SEVEN) stops of IS.

They also announced a 150-600/5.6-8 zoom for a FL EQ of just over 900mm, and it works with both a 1.4 and 2X TC (1800mm) Yikes!

The video for the lens will show up in the viewing screen toward the end of the camera video.

Edited to add: I saw an article earlier today that said the Nikon Z9 has overtaken the spot for the top-selling mirrorless camera. There's a poll in Sony Rumors asking what Sony should do to update the A1 and win the spot back.

That's some impressive kit.
7 stops of stabilization is mind-blowing!
That sensor, being BSI, stacked, and having a faster processor, should equate to less rolling shutter as well. Rolling shutter is a big peeve of many reviewers of video from Sony APSC cameras.

I thought I wanted Sony to follow Canon, but now I think Fuji has made some very smart moves. So which way will Sony go? BSI & Stacked (Fuji)? Higher megapixel but same technology (Canon)? or will they simply recycle the same APSC sensor (hope not)? Only time will tell...

 

[FowlersFreeTime]

I have to be honest, if I were looking for a new camera right now this would be high on my list of possibles, the need to change out all my lenses notwithstanding . Still, at $2500 it's an awfully expensive entry into APS-C. It's clearly aimed directly at the Vlogger market with the video features and that new power zoom lens.

7 stops of IBIS equals the new OM-1. Anything matching M-4/3 in IBIS up to this point has been unheard of. I hope this bodes well for future releases from Sony.

Actually, I don't think this is aimed at the same "vlogger" market segment that Sony was aiming for. I think it's more upscale than that, especially given the price.
Considering that Fuji doesn't do full frame cameras, I see the XT4 as their competitor to a6600 or A7C and this new X-H2S would be the competitor to a Sony A7SIII or even A7IV. The capabilities scream video-centric like an A7SIII or FX3.

Venturing down that line of thought, I wouldn't expect so many features on Sony's next APSC. No, that would cannibalize sales from the A7SIII AND they would probably like to keep it at/under $2000 USD. So to compromise, you would have decisions like:
- mini HDMI, not full HDMI out
- less effective IBIS (because... Sony)
- less video profiles/codecs, I wouldn't even expect S Cinetone (because... Sony)
- I would expect fully articulated screen now that they have embraced the trend
- New processor would be a most, but they might go "cheap" or "good enough" here.
- If they give us a stacked sensor (please?), I bet it will be 24mp again, so it doesn't cannibalize sales from full frame lineup.
- The price of a "flagship" Sony APSC would have to be $1500-$1800 to be jussst shy of the A7C's MSRP... or below the price of a theoretical A7CII.

 

[FowlersFreeTime]

Agreed.

Perhaps I used the wrong term. Instead of 'vlogger', maybe 'content creator'. Someone who actually makes $ with their camera, along with those like many of us who purchase in the pro-sumer range.

Yes, I think we're on the same page here.

I don't think the A7C is in contention for this spot. The reduced size/weight/cost of a crop sensor camera is always going to be a huge factor for many, many people.

I actually worry that Sony will continue to cripple APSC cameras (or at least sacrifice R&D funds) in order to encourage users to make the jump to full frame, with the A7C being the entry-level Full Frame. Heck they're even similar in size and shape. So yes, I do believe a well spec'd APSC could cannibalize A7C sales. It would for me... but then again I've invested in APSC glass, so others' mileage may vary.

 

[pointreyes]

I'm more excited by the lens roadmap and the next Fujifilm camera.
A 30 f2.8 macro would by a nice addition to my XF 60 and XF 80 macro lenses.
Anxiously waiting for Tamron to release the 17-70 f2.8 X-mount, it appears to be an incredible lens for infrared on the E-mount.
The X-H2, not stacked sensor, will have a 40 MP sensor. Quite curious to see how that high of resolution in APSC will do. I know there was some frustration for Canon users when they released their 33 MP APSC sensor years ago but I suspect the RF lenses will help out. The R7 looks be a competitor to the X-H2.

Sony is releasing some new APSC glass but with Canon R7 and Fujifilm X-H2, you would hope Sony will be coming out with something for a new camera.

 

[pointreyes]

I just watched pal2tech's video and WOW!

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Sometimes I want a second stacked sensor camera to pair up with my A1 using the 70-200 GM II for events.
The X-H2s is a little more than the 24-70 GM II, but I happen to already own the Fujifilm red badge 16-55 f2.8. That range is a little less important over the 70-200 range but it is still needed. The red badge zooms have linear motors and the 16-55 was always my favorite in the Fujifilm red badge zooms line-up. This would allow me to keep my GM primes and not care about those few times I wish I had the 24-70 range in a zoom. Here's hoping the improved AF is good as Fujifilm hyped it up to.

 

[AlphaWorld]

I would be surprised to see a stacked sensor in a cheap Sony APS-C camera. In an expensive one, lining up with the concept of bodies like Nikon’s D500, or Canon’s 7D, then yes, but I don’t know if Sony wants to confuse things with such a body.

I would strongly urge you not to hold your breath for a stacked APS-C sensor. Still, it could be fun to have an A1-mini

 

[FowlersFreeTime]

Here you go @FowlersFreeTime! Just what the doctor ordered!

Likely wrong A7000 rumor from China: 24Mp, $1699, 4k30p​

Likely wrong A7000 rumor from China: 24Mp, $1699, 4k30p - sonyalpharumors

Some Chinese forum shared those A7000 specs that are 99% likely to be NOT true. But just for the sake of clickbait…sorry… “discussion” I will share them for you :) A7000 24MP CMOS BIONZ XR 11fps continuous shooting 6K full-pixel hypersampling 4K/30fps Super Sampling 1080p XAVC SI / HS recording...

www.sonyalpharumors.com

Well that's an interesting photo-chop haha!

• I wouldn't lament the loss of the rangefinder style evf, though I am right-eye-dominant and the placement of the a6400's evf hasn't been a problem; it was just too small.
• The prominent eye-piece however, if this render is to be believed, would suggest an articulated screen since a flip up would no longer work.
• Also looks like they lifted the mode dial from the A74 for this franken-render, which is interesting.
• The render is missing a dedicated video button, which I believe is now standard practice and a good thing too, because the a6xxx series had a weird little video button on the edge of the grip (so dumb).
• I believe the render might be correct in that there won't be a front dial, though I am surprised to see the power switch wasn't swapped out for a zoom rocker.

Honestly, I'd be ok if they kept the resolution at 24mp as long as they have a faster chipset to reduce rolling shutter. I will embrace the Z battery and toss my old batteries in a heartbeat. Finally, I very much welcome ANY IBIS.

 

[FowlersFreeTime]

I love the gist of the comments on that site: "These specs are underwhelming enough to be true, but the render is terrible and probably inaccurate"

If this camera does come out and the sensor is the same as the one I have and there's no improvement to image quality (or dynamic range), or stability in video, or rolling shutter... Then there's no reason for me to upgrade until my a6400 breaks down.