Talk about iso noise and useable levels

[spudhead]

Ok just recently I have had several members comment about shots I have posted, basically saying nice shot given the high iso, now I only shoot uncompressed raw and 24 megapixel so I think I know what works for my 2 e-mount camera bodies and for the a99ii I use. I do use topaz ai on some images but maintain that if the exposure is good then the image will be clean or clean up in post. Now the a7iii for me is good to 10,000 iso -12,800 iso but the a9 cut off for me is 6400 iso and of course the light needs to be ok and maybe I will have dailed the exp up some. Obviously members are from all over the globe so other factors are also at work as other members have mentioned in other posts. So I will add a shot of a robin a7iii at 10,000 iso its lost some detail but is I think a reasonable example so what are members experiences and what levels are good for you, do you edit much or denoise comments and thought please

• ILCE-7M3
• Sony FE 200–600mm F5.6–6.3 G OSS (SEL200600G)
• 600.0 mm
• ƒ/6.3
• 1/2000 sec
• ISO 10000

 

[russellsnr]

Sony A7 IV, ISO 12,800,New Trial software Topaz Photo Noise and Sharpen, White Balance, Contrast,set Black and White points.
SOOC image and processed. I was using On1 photo raw but so laggy I reverted to Topaz for noise reduction, I do like Topaz apart from the time it takes to render an image even if you just move it a touch I wish it would show you the results as you make adjustments as On1 does, looking at getting DXO when or if it comes up on a special later in the year as I think £100+ is a bit much just now. Russ.

• ILCE-7M4
• FE 200-600mm F5.6-6.3 G OSS
• 295.0 mm
• ƒ/5.6
• 1/200 sec
• ISO 12800

• ILCE-7M4
• FE 200-600mm F5.6-6.3 G OSS
• 295.0 mm
• ƒ/5.6
• 1/200 sec
• ISO 12800

 

[Sdawes]

I never really give it any serious thought when out in the field as I would always prefer to take a sharp shot at very high ISO versus a soft one at a much lower ISO . I shoot manual and if I can ( subject to available light ) I tend to expose just to the right to avoid having to lift shadows in PP and will dial in whatever ISO is needed to get the shot . I have Topaz Denoise and will use that as required as I think its a superb bit of software . If I am shooting a subject that afford me some time then I will take a few images as outlined above and then lower the ISO progressivley and take a few more and see what they look like on the PC when I get home . As I said earlier I tend not to think about it because it is what it is to get the shot I am looking for. Th e light here in the Uk is not great for vast parts of the year as hence trying to capture fast moving subjects will often result in having to use higher ISO to freeze my subject , and as I am a wildlife photographer I guess I have become accustomed to that scenario over the years which is why I dont really give it much thought .

 

[Unframed Dave]

I use the A6600 for weight reasons, I shoot jpegs and I do not use anything to sharpen images after the camera has processed them.

This will be an unpopular opinion, but I believe sharpening software has created unrealistic expectations in hobby photography.

I have made a conscious decision to keep images because I like them or they evoke memories (very important that last one as someone who can forget entire holidays), whereas, I had got to the point where I was deleting them purely because I couldn't see every single element within a feather for example.

As I take images purely for my own pleasure, I've decided it's fine. They don't get blown up and hung on the wall, at best they will go in an A3 photobook as per the example below....

• ILCE-6600
• E PZ 16-50mm F3.5-5.6 OSS
• 16.0 mm
• ƒ/10
• 1/100 sec
• ISO 100

• ILCE-6600
• E PZ 16-50mm F3.5-5.6 OSS
• 16.0 mm
• ƒ/10
• 1/80 sec
• ISO 100

• ILCE-6600
• E PZ 16-50mm F3.5-5.6 OSS
• 16.0 mm
• ƒ/10
• 1/100 sec
• ISO 100

• ILCE-6600
• E PZ 16-50mm F3.5-5.6 OSS
• 16.0 mm
• ƒ/10
• 1/100 sec
• ISO 100

 

[Uncle Kevriano]

I have expressed thoughts on this before, and, like you, maintain that getting exposure right is the most important factor, especially using the A7RIV, but I also worry about ISO much less than I ever used to since the advent of Topaz, but I set my upper limit at 10k anyway, I think much higher on the RIV is too much of a compromise.

 

[Deleted Member 5003]

The other consideration is high ISO/grain tends to be more noticable against darker backgrounds whist light backgrounds
do not show it up as much......consequently comparing images with differing backgrounds but same iso levels can be misleading.

 

[spudhead]

This will be an interesting thread if you get enough responses. I'm still trying to figure out what's acceptable coming from a system where ISO was pretty limited. The biggest problem is the type of photography. Almost everything I shoot is in motion with the desire to freeze it in place, which is not always possible when it gets dark. It's a balancing act between DOF, SS and ISO (well, isn't it always?) but with far more limitations at night.

I like to try and keep as much of the car in focus as I can, so my aperture is going to remain more closed than open. Trying to overexpose or ETTR is useless since I'm either trying to freeze or my shutter is already pushing the window for handheld. That leaves ISO. Many times I'll simply take static shots instead.

Up until now I've been shooting longer zooms at night like I do during the day. I need to rethink this, and believe part of my answer is to shoot a shorter FL from nearer, which will improve the DOF and allow slower shutters due to the FL. Of course it's not going to help in freezing motion, but I'll be in a position to pan standing next to the vehicle with a short lens. This may allow a bit of overexposure, even 1/3 stop would be welcomed.

Most of the night shots I've taken at the track so far have been 6400 or 8000, which seem to clean up pretty well, some better than others.

DSC05940 by Shotglass Photo, on Flickr

Well Tim its looks good to me and you have a lot of limiting factors to consider

 

[spudhead]

Sony A7 IV, ISO 12,800,New Trial software Topaz Photo Noise and Sharpen, White Balance, Contrast,set Black and White points.
SOOC image and processed. I was using On1 photo raw but so laggy I reverted to Topaz for noise reduction, I do like Topaz apart from the time it takes to render an image even if you just move it a touch I wish it would show you the results as you make adjustments as On1 does, looking at getting DXO when or if it comes up on a special later in the year as I think £100+ is a bit much just now. Russ.View attachment 24916View attachment 24917

Hi russ the topaz ai has a split screen option so you can do before and after or even all 4 options in 4 small windows

 

[spudhead]

I have expressed thoughts on this before, and, like you, maintain that getting exposure right is the most important factor, especially using the A7RIV, but I also worry about ISO much less than I ever used to since the advent of Topaz, but I set my upper limit at 10k anyway, I think much higher on the RIV is too much of a compromise.

Kev I know you are well clued up on the gear you have and you always seem to get good results

Both Affinity and Darktable have good usable denoise modules. It seems like there's not one better than the other, sometimes a photo benefits more from Affinity, sometimes DT. The key is to accept some small amount of noise so as not to remove detail. If I could get them all to look like the one I posted I'd be pretty happy.

I bet you would Tim I would like to see more of your shots.

 

[russellsnr]

Hi russ the topaz ai has a split screen option so you can do before and after or even all 4 options in 4 small windows

Hi, thanks yes I no this but what again I find annoying (for want of a better word) is if you make an adjustment you have to wait to see the result , I find the AI does do a good job but and again OMO no matter what software you use AI just seems to overdo it and with Topaz you cannot do and see small adjustments, for example in any other software you can see what your adjustment is doing as you move a slider if Topaz could do this I think it would be a better option to use, as I said earlier when you adjust in On1 you see an immediate change. Thing is like cameras image manipulation software changes every year sometimes more than once a year.

 

[spudhead]

Hi, thanks yes I no this but what again I find annoying (for want of a better word) is if you make an adjustment you have to wait to see the result , I find the AI does do a good job but and again OMO no matter what software you use AI just seems to overdo it and with Topaz you cannot do and see small adjustments, for example in any other software you can see what your adjustment is doing as you move a slider if Topaz could do this I think it would be a better option to use, as I said earlier when you adjust in On1 you see an immediate change. Thing is like cameras image manipulation software changes every year sometimes more than once a year.

Russ a few questions do you shoot raw? I assume you edit in photoshop or what ever first and crop? how do you export to denoise? I always convert to highest quality tiff file and denoise that then tweek and convert to highest quality jpeg

 

[spudhead]

I use the A6600 for weight reasons, I shoot jpegs and I do not use anything to sharpen images after the camera has processed them.

This will be an unpopular opinion, but I believe sharpening software has created unrealistic expectations in hobby photography.

I have made a conscious decision to keep images because I like them or they evoke memories (very important that last one as someone who can forget entire holidays), whereas, I had got to the point where I was deleting them purely because I couldn't see every single element within a feather for example.

As I take images purely for my own pleasure, I've decided it's fine. They don't get blown up and hung on the wall, at best they will go in an A3 photobook as per the example below....

View attachment 24918View attachment 24919View attachment 24920View attachment 24921

Its good that you are happy with your out of the camera jpegs and thats fine with me

 

[russellsnr]

Russ a few questions do you shoot raw? I assume you edit in photoshop or what ever first and crop? how do you export to denoise? I always convert to highest quality tiff file and denoise that then tweek and convert to highest quality jpeg

Hi, have always shot raw format, many years ago when Adobe went down the subscription route I got rid of PS cs6 tried Skylum and they changed the name and stopped supporting my version so ploded on to try On1 but find it needs a supper computer to work well, I do have Affinity photo but holding my hands up never really got down to learning it so now I still use Lightroom 6 perpetual as my DAM export as a tiff to Topaz with only a home made camera colour profile using X-Rite colour checker., back to Lightroom to tweak.

 

[Deleted Member 5045]

I use the original Lightroom for all editing, so only the most basic single noise reduction and sharpening dials.

I went from an A7III to an A7RIII, and one thing I noticed instantly was the ISO noise was about 40-50% more on the A7RIII. Now I only started shooting wildlife in the last 3 months so I'm sort of wishing I kept the A7III, but not the end of the world as I will buy an A1 II whenever it comes out, and the A7RIII is still extremely capable in most situations.

I have my Auto ISO limit set at 8,000 for wildlife, although I don't really even bother any more if the lighting is that average. For street/landscape I adjust ISO manually because I find that I can handhold at very low SS and I always have a tripod of some sort with me anyway. I feel that up to ISO6400 for animals is quite acceptable with my setup, but all other photography I really wouldn't go above 2,000, maybe it's because a lot more is in focus so I can't get away with higher. Landscape and street stuff just looks muddy and crap if too much NR is in play, whereas I find with wildlife I can really smooth out the background noise and detail then just manipulate the animal separately to get the result, as the fur etc hides noise quite well.

For wildlife, I would think that up to ISO10000 on an A7III would be completely usable, even with the basic editing techniques I use. Advanced editing would probably be able to get away with ridiculous ISO values.

 

[spudhead]

I use the original Lightroom for all editing, so only the most basic single noise reduction and sharpening dials.

I went from an A7III to an A7RIII, and one thing I noticed instantly was the ISO noise was about 40-50% more on the A7RIII. Now I only started shooting wildlife in the last 3 months so I'm sort of wishing I kept the A7III, but not the end of the world as I will buy an A1 II whenever it comes out, and the A7RIII is still extremely capable in most situations.

I have my Auto ISO limit set at 8,000 for wildlife, although I don't really even bother any more if the lighting is that average. For street/landscape I adjust ISO manually because I find that I can handhold at very low SS and I always have a tripod of some sort with me anyway. I feel that up to ISO6400 for animals is quite acceptable with my setup, but all other photography I really wouldn't go above 2,000, maybe it's because a lot more is in focus so I can't get away with higher. Landscape and street stuff just looks muddy and crap if too much NR is in play, whereas I find with wildlife I can really smooth out the background noise and detail then just manipulate the animal separately to get the result, as the fur etc hides noise quite well.

For wildlife, I would think that up to ISO10000 on an A7III would be completely usable, even with the basic editing techniques I use. Advanced editing would probably be able to get away with ridiculous ISO values.

Thanks for input and yes the a7iii does handle iso well