No zoom in RAW

[Ralph]

I have been thinking of going over to RAW but when I did there was no zoom.
With a Sigma 100/400mm lens you as I see it need the zoom as it has helped me get to some birds I would of other wise would have
only had a black dot there. So what I think I will be doing is wait till the day I get some sort of 600mm lens.
Then I think I will be able to make the change over.

There is another part to this and I don't want to sound like some moronic big head or anything.
But is there some sort of trick that I can use to not take as many photo's.
Today I went over the road and I have got every bird there yet I still came home with 285 shots.
I have no need to be doing this now as I feel I have got past the beginners point and I am sitting inbetween the intermediate and Professional.
Others might and will say this is crap but this is where I feel I am.
So if you know of any trick to slow me down could you please let me know.

 

[Uncle Kevriano]

Can you explain more about not having zoom in RAW? Not quite sure what you mean as I have no such issues.
As for the second part, I can shoot 285 shots in a few minutes if I'm trying to get that one different shot where the bird has a catchlight or is posing differently. I do tend to shoot in bursts of 3 or 4 though, rather than all out 10fps, unless it a flight shot. That's just a matter of self control on the shutter release.

 

[Ralph]

Can you explain more about not having zoom in RAW? Not quite sure what you mean as I have no such issues.
As for the second part, I can shoot 285 shots in a few minutes if I'm trying to get that one different shot where the bird has a catchlight or is posing differently. I do tend to shoot in bursts of 3 or 4 though, rather than all out 10fps, unless it a flight shot. That's just a matter of self control on the shutter release.

I f you put your camera to that clear Image zoom you can get up to 2x zoom inbuit in the cameraAnd it only works with the Clear Image part.
But as soon as I put the camera to RAW this would not work at all. I was more than disappointed with this feature, as I do think I need to head over to RAW now and leave Jpeg behind. But to lose the zoom with this lens I see no point.

To the other point I was doing the my shot as continuous mode but getting home to find between 2000 and 3000 shots. Way too many in anyones books. So I have gone back to single shot and I am still over doing it. But I think what you said in self control maybe the key.
When I 1st began I was getting about 30% keeps and 5% of them postable. This number has changes to the opposite and I am going to fill Harddrives quickliy. So Just wondered if there was a little secret I didn't know about.

 

[Uncle Kevriano]

Right with you. So yes, any in camera effect will only work with jpeg, because RAW is just that, a RAW file, no processing, where as all in camera images are processed, even when you review on your camera screen, and zoom in, you are seeing a jpeg image. I've not used clear image zoom.

Yep, definitely all about control, and having time in between shots to quick review your shots to see if you got what you needed, so you can move on to another subject. Trust me, when I see a species for the first time I will take hundreds of shots, just to be sure I have at least one decent record of it.

 

[Ralph]

Right with you. So yes, any in camera effect will only work with jpeg, because RAW is just that, a RAW file, no processing, where as all in camera images are processed, even when you review on your camera screen, and zoom in, you are seeing a jpeg image. I've not used clear image zoom.

Yep, definitely all about control, and having time in between shots to quick review your shots to see if you got what you needed, so you can move on to another subject. Trust me, when I see a species for the first time I will take hundreds of shots, just to be sure I have at least one decent record of it.

So I will wait until I get a 6oomm lens before making the swap over. and thanks for the reply.

On the excess of photo taken when I go out I have made it a habit good bad or indifferent I as a rule will not look at what I have got until home.
For me its sort of like opening up a present and then you get to see what you have got.
I like this rule and don't want to change it. I will have to try this thing called self control, don't hold your breath but.

 

[Uncle Kevriano]

The self control thing doesn't work too well. I've got so many images unprocessed and so many that need trashing

 

[Ralph]

Kev I can got out 3 time and then times this by big number and I get bored editing images.
So I do get to them but a week or 3 may pass by and them may times these are half heart efforts at the shots.
But swapping over to single I will have to look at each one as they will be different.
I will do as you mention and fast made for inflight shots . But the good thing is its all learning.

 

[DavidN]

From what I’ve seen elsewhere, the Clear Image Zoom feature works better for video than stills. I tried it briefly for a couple of stills shots and not only have you got to shoot JPEG but the focusing mode seems to change and all I got was a large outline of a green box whereas I was set up normally on expanded spot. Not sure what that does.

 

[Deleted Member 777]

Let's make sure we all understand what's happening when you hit digital zoom:

You're cropping in-camera.

That's it, and that's all. The camera takes a smaller area of the sensor (the 'zoomed' part) and blows it up to a larger size. Because of that, you are losing image quality. It's taking the portion of whatever that 'zoomed' image is and spreading it out over the entire sensor. Are you getting the XX MP image your camera is capable of? Only in size. The image quality is degraded by making a (for example) 30MP image out of a 15MP image. Then, because it's only available in jpeg mode, the camera is applying its own processing and saving a lossy file.

You are further ahead to shoot in lossless uncompressed RAW and crop to the size you want on the computer. You can prove this yourself by shooting the same image using both methods. Done correctly, the RAW image will be superior.

If needed, buy a processing program that provides upscaling.

 

[Clix Pix]

I've never used Clear Image Zoom -- no need, for the reasons Brownie explains above. I shoot only in RAW, have done so for years. If I want to extend my reach, I use a long lens, either the 100-400mm or the 200-600mm and if I want to further extend my reach I put a teleconverter on the lens.

Yeah, that Continuous High + / "burst" thing can really bite the photographer in the butt. I thought I had things pretty well under control when using the A7R IV in that mode, but then when I started shooting the A1 with its 20 fps (it'll do 30 fps but I'm not even gonna try that!), the images rack up really, really quickly..... I am trying to train myself to use a light finger on the shutter button but am still having difficulty with that. So I moan and groan when I put the CFExpress card into the computer and see that I've.....gulp!....now got something like 1,240 images to review!! But I was only shooting for a short period of time....!!!

As for reviewing images in-camera after they've been shot ("chimping"), I used to do that with DSLRs and for a while after I first got the A7R IV, but eventually realized that I really didn't need to do that as I could see right in the EVF if there were an exposure issue or that I needed to change something in the settings before actually taking the shot, rather than waiting to see the "blinkies" in the DSLR screen after the shot had been made. When I got the A1 I eventually turned off the preview function altogether as I don't use it anyway. I can still check at any time, of course, if I do want to review what I've shot, and occasionally I might, but I don't look after every shot any more.

 

[AlphaWorld]

You can get exactly the same effect as 'Clear Image Zoom' when shooting RAW, but without limits.

1. take the shot in RAW
2. bring it into your processing software
3. crop it as much as you like (half size if you want 2x zoom, but you can go much further)
4. save it to JPEG scaled up to the same size as your original image

Note that step 4 will introduce imaginary pixels to enlarge the image, which is exactly what Clear Image Zoom does. I don't like those, so I skip that step.

I generally share my images in smaller sizes (like scaled down to 1000 pixels on the long side). If I crop the image to half size, it is usually still a lot more than 1000 pixels, so I'm still scaling down, just not by as much.

 

[Ralph]

Please don't think me as ignorant but I am not a technical person and I will agree to the point I need to read more of the book I just bought.
So a lot of what you said Tim is a little over my head. But I think I get the point of it. I am going out on Tuesday to do a bird count in a bush area and this mean photos as well and I will try to do the CLZ and the RAW. The way I can tell right away is I take a shot nothing to do with what I am doing so I know where one part from the next. I just have to remember to do that. I have even used the APSC made I think that comes built in and this has given up some closer in zoomed shots.. I might even try it a little later today Just depends on my back..

I will say that I like to use the clear image zoom and the way I look at it is like this. Many people say that we should be using back button focus. I have tried it a couple of times and each time the results have not come out as I wished. So I have gone back to the focus with the shutter button. And here I am not trying to cause any sort of tiff or argument with anyone but there are things that I personally can't get to work with my camera, while others swear by them. So this does leave me to this point that maybe I am not the one to do this what you have said Tim but I will give it a go as I say listen to all and take what is useful for yourself and disregaurd what doesn't work.
Once done I will post up the images.
Oh and all shots I have posted so far have all been done with the CLZ So for me as I see it works really good..

Clix Pix the lens that really is on my camera is the Sigma100/400mm lens. And with this the autofocus will not work going sony to sony to sigma. Meaning I have to change the 400mm lens to a sony to make the Teleconverter to work. I don't know the truth of this but I was told this here and I have not no need to expect this to be a lie. So that being said I have just got the straight out 400mm lens and at times the reach on it is lack. Well here in Australia it is as we go out looking for them and we don't set up feeding stations and hide to get in closer. We are out in the open getting all our shots. I am unsure how it its done in other places but I have watch youtube things where people do this.
I do hope this explains a few more things

 

[Ralph]

You can get exactly the same effect as 'Clear Image Zoom' when shooting RAW, but without limits.

1. take the shot in RAW
2. bring it into your processing software
3. crop it as much as you like (half size if you want 2x zoom, but you can go much further)
4. save it to JPEG scaled up to the same size as your original image

Note that step 4 will introduce imaginary pixels to enlarge the image, which is exactly what Clear Image Zoom does. I don't like those, so I skip that step.

I generally share my images in smaller sizes (like scaled down to 1000 pixels on the long side). If I crop the image to half size, it is usually still a lot more than 1000 pixels, so I'm still scaling down, just not by as much.

I will try to do a few shot in this in both ways to see the difference myself a little later.
I think that somewhere I mentioned that when I post I post images at 1000 on the longest side and the resolution is down to 40.
You see we have many people here who so called share your images. So I thought at 40 this would not give them much of a chance to
get a larger sized shot.
But I only resize photo's I am going to post if they are not going to be posted they are not touch.

 

[lagaffe]

Hi,
As already pointed out, digital zooming while shooting raw is not possible.

Also, enlarging files in post-process will only work to a point: if the subject (a bird in the sky, for instance) covers only 300x300 pixels on the sensor, then there is unfortunately no way to get much detail out of such a picture by upscaling it: there is simply not enough information.

In fewer words: if you see only black dots in the viewfinder, you won't much more than that in the actual, no matter how enlarged it is.

The only ways around this problem are: to get closer ( not always possible) or use a longer focal lenght.

As for Tele-converters, they are usually designed to work with very specifics lenses. Especially the ones sold by Sony for E-mount cameras. There used to be generic TCs which worked with almost any lens on other systems (such as Sony A-mount) but it is not the case with the E-mount, as far as I know.

Regards,
L.

 

[Clix Pix]

I should have clarified that the times that I do the 20 fps bursts is when I am taking photos of the birds and wildlife around our little lake..... and although I do that frequently, it's not a daily occurrence. Obviously when I am shooting closeups and macro images, no need for bursts!

 

[AlphaWorld]

I will try to do a few shot in this in both ways to see the difference myself a little later.
I think that somewhere I mentioned that when I post I post images at 1000 on the longest side and the resolution is down to 40.
You see we have many people here who so called share your images. So I thought at 40 this would not give them much of a chance to
get a larger sized shot.
But I only resize photo's I am going to post if they are not going to be posted they are not touch.

let me tell you want I do. It is not what you do, but it might get you what you want.

I shoot a little “loose” a lot of the time so I don’t cut off wings or heads. Then I load the shots for processing, and I crop away the looseness. If I couldn’t get close enough (common, as you say, in Australia), I crop away more, so I get a nice framing of the image. On the A7RIV or the A1 you can crop a lot before you get down to 1000 pixels on the long side, and if you are using good lenses, the small piece you keep can be quite sharp. Another thing you can do while cropping is change the shape of the image. Some times my shots look better as squares. Occasionally I shoot an image as portrait but end up cropping it to landscape.

If I crop an A7RIV or A1 image (over 8000 pixels wide) down to 1600 pixels wide (something I do sometimes) then that is roughly a 5x zoom, and more than the Clear Image zoom can do. And if I then scale that down to 1000 pixels, all good. If I actually wanted it 1600 pixels wide, then I don’t scale it at all.

The thing about this kind of zooming by cropping is that you aren’t scaling the resulting image up at all. What you are really doing is choosing a smaller piece to scale DOWN to the final result. And sometimes I find something more interesting than the intended subject - it does not happen often, but it can be amusing to find another bird in the shot.

I don’t know if I described that very well, but does it make sense?

 

[J.Duffy]

If you need more zoom but you're wanting to go raw could you not switch to APS-C mode? I understand you'll lose megapixels, but honestly with these cameras megapixels are not the deciding factor of a great photo.

 

[Uncle Kevriano]

If you need more zoom but you're wanting to go raw could you not switch to APS-C mode? I understand you'll lose megapixels, but honestly with these cameras megapixels are not the deciding factor of a great photo.

This is something I use a lot, but only because it helps me frame small birds and also allows me to more accurately pick the point I wish to focus on.

 

[J.Duffy]

This is something I use a lot, but only because it helps me frame small birds and also allows me to more accurately pick the point I wish to focus on.

I use it quite a bit as well. I have it programmed to my C1 Button.

 

[Uncle Kevriano]

I use it quite a bit as well. I have it programmed to my C1 Button.

Same, easy switch, except that I forget I'v used it, out the 24mm on and then get shots at 35mm instead

 

[Jeff A]

I tend to use burst shooting for very limited purposes. When at the drag strip I use it about half the time to shoot cars coming off the line. When I do, I use 7FPS. I've found that's plenty. While my camera is capable of 20FPS mechanical. 60FPS electronic, or even a short burst in 6K video that allows me to choose which frames to keep, 7 is more than enough. When the R IV was first revealed a lot of people grumbled about the sensor readout time and the fact that it's limited to 6FPS in Uncompressed RAW. I'm happy with that.

A day at the track will usually yield between 1800-2500 shots. I have no intention of processing that many shots, so the first thing I do is cull the images to what I want to keep. A burst will usually be 4-8 photos at 7FPS. Of that I choose the most 'spectacular' to keep, the rest get trashed.

If you'll indulge me (since these are not from a Sony), here's a typical burst. This was originally 6 shots. The car owner asked me for the entire series, but two were unacceptably out of focus. To be honest I would've culled the 4th shot since it's a bit soft, but he wanted it. If not for that I would've kept only #3, the rest would be in the bin.

Jim's Valiant 1 by telecast, on Flickr

Jim's Valiant 2 by telecast, on Flickr

Jim's Valiant 4 by telecast, on Flickr

Jim's Valiant 3 by telecast, on Flickr



So, there were originally 6 shots made in less than a second and nothing was missed. A burst like that at 20FPS wouldn't have gained me anything but a headache when culling. I've found the same for air shows. A faster burst has never done more the unnecessarily fill the card with images that aren't any better than the ones that were captured. I can see how it would be advantageous for BIF if you're shooting something fast like swallows or small birds flitting about, but most subjects don't require it.

I have my camera set for 3-5 shots per second. That's plenty for whatever I might do.
So the Dude in your set didn't have to spend a bundle for a Donor Vehicle, did he? Are they running 1/8th mile or Quarter Mile Drags there?

 

[J.Duffy]

Same, easy switch, except that I forget I'v used it, out the 24mm on and then get shots at 35mm instead

I do that all the time!!

 

[Reciprocum]

I would not advise shooting RAW Hi+ M-shutter too often on a M3 for 2 reasons:
1) images become only 12bit deep (Still way better than JPEGs 8 bit but in my book not good enough to justify the effort of editing the 12bit RAW). Stay at Hi mode and you will still get 8fps at full 14bit deep IQ.
2) shutter wear and noise (birds might be far but M3 m-shutter is loud enough for them to notice you). Your M3 won’t last long if you keep using m-shutter bursts (as a former M3 owner for 3 years I never had any m-shutter problems but I just seriously doubt it would reach the 200.000 rated lifespan, was at 52k actuations count when I sold it with very self limited use of m-shutter bursts), unfortunately e-shutter bursts introduce a lot of rolling shutter on the M3.

If you find yourself absolutely needing to go into burst mode more than 25% of the time then you have to consider transitioning to a stacked sensor model. If you find yourself often limited by reach then buy a longer lens and use TCs, don’t waste your megapixels cropping/zooming.

 

[Ralph]

Well I was out today and I switched between RAW and Jpeg and there is a differents.
For me it was one I didn't like. I didn't like the size of the RAW in the final wash and when birding you want to get a good sized shot.
I also done the ASPC mode which was mentioned.
So to finish this off for me and in my mind.
I am going to stick with Clear Image Zoom as it works for me.. And in the end I take photo for me and not for other people.
Well thats a lie I take them for the wife as well and she likes what I come home with the way I am shooting.
I am not saying anyone is wrong, but I am saying the RAW way will have to wait until I get a longer reaching lens, and this is all.
I seen not one piece of advantage heading into at or with my current set up.

I thank each and every one of you with your view points, so don't for one minute think I have taken the advice for granted, as I have not.
I did give it a go and just found that it wasn't working..
I will use burst mode for bird in flight or fight. I will keep using the CIZ until a larger lens comes into my hands.
The self control over the number of shots I take is going to be the hard one I think. But Like today it was another 825 shot day.

So thank you to everyone who done their best to point me in the right direction on this.

 

[Jeff A]

That's 1/4 mile. Milan Dragway is one of the oldest in the country, it's been there since 1963 or 64. He runs with a group called Great Lakes Gassers. They have all levels of cars from total beaters to top notch paint.

They do run 1/8 mile Pro Sportsman class there as well, there are two finish lines and clocks and they can go back and forth during a bigger race day seamlessly.

I used to watch a fair amount of Drag Racing but have not for some time. Years ago I owned an Oldsmobile 442 and would run it in Wednesday night Drags. In later years, I tried the same thing on a 1200cc Yamaha. I'm not far from a Drag strip. I should go and take my camera. I had not thought of that until your post. Thanks!

 

[roxannebcb]

Let's make sure we all understand what's happening when you hit digital zoom:

You're cropping in-camera.

That's it, and that's all. The camera takes a smaller area of the sensor (the 'zoomed' part) and blows it up to a larger size. Because of that, you are losing image quality. It's taking the portion of whatever that 'zoomed' image is and spreading it out over the entire sensor. Are you getting the XX MP image your camera is capable of? Only in size. The image quality is degraded by making a (for example) 30MP image out of a 15MP image. Then, because it's only available in jpeg mode, the camera is applying its own processing and saving a lossy file.

You are further ahead to shoot in lossless uncompressed RAW and crop to the size you want on the computer. You can prove this yourself by shooting the same image using both methods. Done correctly, the RAW image will be superior.

If needed, buy a processing program that provides upscaling.

This information is VERY helpful. I will try this today.

 

[AlphaWorld]

I would not advise shooting RAW Hi+ M-shutter too often on a M3 for 2 reasons:
1) images become only 12bit deep (Still way better than JPEGs 8 bit but in my book not good enough to justify the effort of editing the 12bit RAW). Stay at Hi mode and you will still get 8fps at full 14bit deep IQ.
2) shutter wear and noise (birds might be far but M3 m-shutter is loud enough for them to notice you). Your M3 won’t last long if you keep using m-shutter bursts (as a former M3 owner for 3 years I never had any m-shutter problems but I just seriously doubt it would reach the 200.000 rated lifespan, was at 52k actuations count when I sold it with very self limited use of m-shutter bursts), unfortunately e-shutter bursts introduce a lot of rolling shutter on the M3.

If you find yourself absolutely needing to go into burst mode more than 25% of the time then you have to consider transitioning to a stacked sensor model. If you find yourself often limited by reach then buy a longer lens and use TCs, don’t waste your megapixels cropping/zooming.

On the subject of 12 bit RAW: there was a time when all RAW files were 12 bit, and no one complained about them being terrible. The original Canon 5D was 12 bit. The Canon 1DII and 1DsII were 12 bit. Now, I only use 14 bit RAWs, but that doesn't mean 12 bit is anathema. Depending on how much work you do on the file, 12 bits may be ample.

On the subject of mechanical shutter life: the 200k actuations is an estimate, and shutters routinely exceed that estimate. It is becoming rare to hear of a shutter not reaching it. In fact, there are cases of people exceeding shutter life estimates by ridiculous amounts: one 1DII sports shooter reached 1.8 million actuations (almost all of them bursts, unsurprisingly) on a shutter estimated to last 200k. That's an extreme case, of course. Professional shooters get shutters replaced every so often - it's not an expensive exercise, and it's nothing to fear, indeed it's an expected part of camera maintenance. Or was - I'm not expected to need to get the shutter replaced on my A1, given it has yet to register one actuation

I do agree with you about shutter noise. Love the silence of the e-shutter on a stacked sensor.

 

[Reciprocum]

On the subject of 12 bit RAW: there was a time when all RAW files were 12 bit, and no one complained about them being terrible. The original Canon 5D was 12 bit. The Canon 1DII and 1DsII were 12 bit. Now, I only use 14 bit RAWs, but that doesn't mean 12 bit is anathema. Depending on how much work you do on the file, 12 bits may be ample.

On the subject of mechanical shutter life: the 200k actuations is an estimate, and shutters routinely exceed that estimate. It is becoming rare to hear of a shutter not reaching it. In fact, there are cases of people exceeding shutter life estimates by ridiculous amounts: one 1DII sports shooter reached 1.8 million actuations (almost all of them bursts, unsurprisingly) on a shutter estimated to last 200k. That's an extreme case, of course. Professional shooters get shutters replaced every so often - it's not an expensive exercise, and it's nothing to fear, indeed it's an expected part of camera maintenance. Or was - I'm not expected to need to get the shutter replaced on my A1, given it has yet to register one actuation

I do agree with you about shutter noise. Love the silence of the e-shutter on a stacked sensor.

On the subject of 12 bit RAW:

12 bit RAWs would never allow me to transform this

• ILCE-7M4
• Sigma 85mm F1.4 DG DN | A (Sony E)
• 85.0 mm
• ƒ/1.4
• 1/8000 sec
• ISO 50

into this:

• ILCE-7M4
• Sigma 85mm F1.4 DG DN | A (Sony E)
• 85.0 mm
• ƒ/1.4
• 1/8000 sec
• ISO 50

So for me it's a resolute hard pass on 12 bit RAW. I would even consider going Medium Format 16 bit if there is a global shutter model with AF performance similar to what I get with FF.

 

[Slug]

I neither use Clear zoom or shoot in RAW most of the time. However I do use APS-C mode with birds.
I'm often deleting as I go along which reduces the shot load at the end of the day. There will always be the obvious misses where you can see in camera and you can just get rid of it.

 

[Ralph]

I neither use Clear zoom or shoot in RAW most of the time. However I do use APS-C mode with birds.
I'm often deleting as I go along which reduces the shot load at the end of the day. There will always be the obvious misses where you can see in camera and you can just get rid of it.

I like the Clear Image Zoom especially with only the 100/400mm lens. I have tried the APS-C mode a long while ago so I can't really remember why I don't use it now. So I can't give you a clear cut answer to that.
I tried RAW and honestly I myself don't like it. I know not too many will like this but I am not them and they are not me.
Just becuse it is said to be the thing to do doesn't always mean it's the right thing for me. So if you are going to have a go at me over that part remember we are not robots and we all have our own way and my way is just different your way.
On deleting as you go I know I can do this but I like to see what I have got when I get home and due to this I turned off the preview of what I have taken. I have looked at a few shots here and there but normally I will not look at what I have got.
I feel I can tell rightly or wrongly I think I can work out what I need to do while shooting and yep I do get it wrong at times.
But this is the way I do my now and I feel it is working okay for me with the odd look through the viewfinder once in a while.