Sony A1 The MOST basic thing - getting Exposure right (I'm failing)

[GracieAllen]

A question so basic as to be embarrassing…

Past: D500, Tamron 150-600 G2. Manual mode, 1/2500, f/9 – f/11, Auto ISO with limit of 6400. Almost always spot meter. Focus area 99% in “Group”. Worked fine. With the spot meter, metering was essentially always where the camera focused – or possibly some part of the group area. Birds were almost always well exposed. Occasionally with a snowy egret or black bird I’ll be slightly off, but never more than about 1 stop. Rarely even looked at the “blinkies” display.

Current: Alpha 1, Sony 200-600, Aperture mode, Auto ISO, Min SS 1/2000 or “Faster” with range 100-6400. Zebras on, with Minimum 107+ (I’ve also tried 109+). I have the spot meter set to the spot where the focus is. I’ve tried Multi. My exposures are WAY off too often for my liking. I almost always have zebras, sometimes a LOT of zebras, and since they’re so frequently there, I note them then usually ignore them because is MOST cases the areas AREN’T blown out in the RAW image.

I’m usually busy enough that I’m not looking at the histogram when my subject may only give me 2 or 3 seconds to get a shot.

My exposures are mostly not bad, but way too often they suck. I shot some last evening, and the camera did a good job of the eye focus, but the white areas of the birds were so blown out there was no recovering it. At -2.5 stops or so in Lightroom I finally got rid of the over exposure, but there’s absolutely NO detail in the feathers where the bird is white. My presumption is the focus is on the eye, which is black, and getting that reasonably correct is blowing out the whites.

Using Multi seems fine for “normal” stuff, but long lens, dark birds with bright backgrounds, or white birds like seagulls against a deep blue sky it’s not very good. Or even sidelit birds with white and a dark tree as background.

Do I need to change the zebra level to 100+? Since the zebras are an output of the camera’s exposure, that just seems like it would TELL me there’s overexposure (at the jpeg level), but wouldn’t CHANGE the exposure. And I wouldn’t be using the dynamic range the camera has (expose to the right)…

How are y’all handling your metering? Are you constantly changing the exposure compensation? I’ve read different places that person A just always leaves it in Multi, and person B uses 100+ for zebra level so they never overexpose (but virtually always under expose). Others say they use the spot meter, with one person saying they always use the Highlight spot (would that help?). Exposure compensation, whether on a button or using the dial, is very slow to be fiddling with.

SO, what changes do I need to make in my shooting to get more accurate exposures? Hopefully, it’s not “constantly watch the histogram and change exposure compensation all the time” – that seems like regressing about 20 years.

 

[Deleted Member 5003]

Yes whilst. It seems your settings are generally ok you do not describe your shooting conditions.......

If You are shooting across tree lines with sporadic areas of sky , tree line and darkened spots, yes your exposure will be all over the place
on Auto ISO.....In such scenarios you should not use auto iso but set your iso To a fixed and appropriate ISO in manual....aperture priority is not the best shooting scenario for this.

In using fixed ISO in manual, at the start of shooting you should expose for the brightest highlights at the shutter and aperture settings you wish to use Whilst being conservative with your shutter speed and then in pointing your camera at your brightest highlight turn your exposure compensation down to eliminate or near eliminate your zebras. I often use grass(Nearest to mid grey which your camera exposure is always trying to work to) or a white car, if one is near, to set my initial exposures

When you have a reasonable, even background shooting area then aperture priority with auto iso should be fine except again at the start of shooting check your zebras for the brightest part of your potential scenes and again adjust exposure compensation ,whilst viewing your zebras to reduce/eliminate them........

it is not necessary to constantly watch the histogram or zebras as long as you start your session at exposure levels which are reflective of the shooting conditions and particularly if you are shooting white birds wherein you want to ensure you do not overexposed them and retain the detail in the birds feathers....

hope this helps....

 

[Deleted Member 5003]

If you are using spot metering then subject to the colouration of your bird/subject your exposure will change and if you have not checked your exposure at outset for those times when you have a black subject(even eyes) your exposure level will rise and you run the risk of blowing detail out in other highlighted parts of your image...in addition spot focus with metering tied to,it I’m my experience with moving birds, flying or at rest For very energetic small birds at perch, is difficult to maintain and this also may be feeding into the exposure variation you are seeing.

I never worry about my shadows or mid tones as these can always be adjusted in post but ALWAYS check my highlights at shooting start and maybe during shooting if the ambient lighting conditions are changing due to cloud cover, other weather conditions of if I move my shooting location.

 

[pointreyes]

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[MrFotoFool]

I will tell you what I DO, but you will get a lot of different answers on this thread. I use Nikon D850 with the trinity of lenses (up to 70-200), and Sony A74 with 200-600 lens (recenlty switched from Nikon D500 and 500PF lens).

I don't even know what zebras are (I mean I know they are striped horse-like animals, and what Brits call their crosswalks, but not in a camera, though I have seen the term). I assume it's a display that shows blown out highlights, but I have never used or needed it in either camera system (nor Canon before that). I also never look at my histogram on camera. My pictures almost always have good exposure, so I am not going to complicate my shooting with additional stuff I don't need. I have also never (not once in my life) used auto ISO and I wouldn't even know how to turn it on (though I could figure it out if I wanted to). I set the ISO myself.

For Sony (and Nikon when I am doing wildlife) I use Aperture Priority almost exclusively. If it is an extreme backlit situation, like a bird in a shaded tree with bright sky behind, I will move the exposure compensation dial to plus two thirds, give or take, to lighten the bird in shade. I use spot metering on both systems. The Sony A74 gives a choice of small, medium, large spot: I set mine on medium. I have not experimented, it's just what I chose from the start and it is working so I am not going to change it.

 

[GracieAllen]

Thanks for the reply... What you've described was largely my process way long ago when dynamic range was a lot more limited and the metering wasn't nearly as precise as it is today.

Shooting can be any time, bright sun, different directions. It can be early morning or evening with strong side light. It can be the birds in shadow and the evergreens behind them still in sunlight. And, of course, the birds range from bluejays and chickadees with white, to pale red-bellied woodpeckers, to just about anything that shows up.

I THINK what's partially causing the problem is the eye focus. Shiny white swan sitting in bright sun and the eye focus does it's job and puts me on the black eye. It adjusts accordingly and I blow out the bird. With the D500, shooting in group mode (their version of Zone it looks like), I was never on the eye, just the body, and even in spot mode it was large enough to work.

It's not a camera problem (I never figured it was), it's an operator problem. I'm going to have to take the time to handle the different conditions...

 

[GracieAllen]

pointreyes - I don't see anything in the Alpha 1 information or help guide that references a dynamic range optimizer. Would it be called something else?

MrFotoFool – I’ll try to explain what I think all this is, and the people here will correct me if I get it wrong. Your system sounds like it’s working, so I’ll have to play around in different lighting some more…

Zebras are stripes that show up in the viewfinder when you’re shooting. They show over (and under) exposure based on a level you set. If you set the level to 100, when zebras are displayed, you’re overexposing a JPG image. You can set them to a higher (or lower) value. The recommendations I’ve seen are to use a Minimum 107+ or 109+ Level. With 109+ as the minimum level, if you have zebras, you’re over exposing the RAW image.

You can turn them on or off, but if they’re on its supposed to replace the review we always did, looking at the monitor display to see if there were blinking areas and maybe checking the histogram screen. So, with zebras, when shooting we don’t need to review to see if the exposure is correct, ‘cause we can see the information right in the EVF.

Same for the histogram, though again it’s a JPG histogram, so just because it’s climbing the right side DOESN’T mean the RAW is overexposed. At SOME point you push far enough to the right and the RAW IS overexposed and you get the kind of blown out highlights I sometimes get.

All that said, my experience is similar to yours with a D500 shooting wildlife, it sounds like we’re doing essentially the same thing – I let ISO vary, you let shutter speed vary. I’ll have to try changing from the small spot to the medium or large one. That may cover a large enough area for the spot meter to get a more averaged value without going to the whole Multi evaluation.

I’m going to head outside to heckle some of the birds in the yard. At this time of day the feeders and birds are in the shade, and the evergreens 30 feet BEHIND the birds are still in the sun. I’ll see how I do!

 

[Jeff A]

A question so basic as to be embarrassing…

Past: D500, Tamron 150-600 G2. Manual mode, 1/2500, f/9 – f/11, Auto ISO with limit of 6400. Almost always spot meter. Focus area 99% in “Group”. Worked fine. With the spot meter, metering was essentially always where the camera focused – or possibly some part of the group area. Birds were almost always well exposed. Occasionally with a snowy egret or black bird I’ll be slightly off, but never more than about 1 stop. Rarely even looked at the “blinkies” display.

Current: Alpha 1, Sony 200-600, Aperture mode, Auto ISO, Min SS 1/2000 or “Faster” with range 100-6400. Zebras on, with Minimum 107+ (I’ve also tried 109+). I have the spot meter set to the spot where the focus is. I’ve tried Multi. My exposures are WAY off too often for my liking. I almost always have zebras, sometimes a LOT of zebras, and since they’re so frequently there, I note them then usually ignore them because is MOST cases the areas AREN’T blown out in the RAW image.

I’m usually busy enough that I’m not looking at the histogram when my subject may only give me 2 or 3 seconds to get a shot.

My exposures are mostly not bad, but way too often they suck. I shot some last evening, and the camera did a good job of the eye focus, but the white areas of the birds were so blown out there was no recovering it. At -2.5 stops or so in Lightroom I finally got rid of the over exposure, but there’s absolutely NO detail in the feathers where the bird is white. My presumption is the focus is on the eye, which is black, and getting that reasonably correct is blowing out the whites.

Using Multi seems fine for “normal” stuff, but long lens, dark birds with bright backgrounds, or white birds like seagulls against a deep blue sky it’s not very good. Or even sidelit birds with white and a dark tree as background.

Do I need to change the zebra level to 100+? Since the zebras are an output of the camera’s exposure, that just seems like it would TELL me there’s overexposure (at the jpeg level), but wouldn’t CHANGE the exposure. And I wouldn’t be using the dynamic range the camera has (expose to the right)…

How are y’all handling your metering? Are you constantly changing the exposure compensation? I’ve read different places that person A just always leaves it in Multi, and person B uses 100+ for zebra level so they never overexpose (but virtually always under expose). Others say they use the spot meter, with one person saying they always use the Highlight spot (would that help?). Exposure compensation, whether on a button or using the dial, is very slow to be fiddling with.

SO, what changes do I need to make in my shooting to get more accurate exposures? Hopefully, it’s not “constantly watch the histogram and change exposure compensation all the time” – that seems like regressing about 20 years.

David, I forgot. Are you a RAW shooter or JPEG's?

 

[Deleted Member 5003]

Hi David what you state is correct as regards fuctionality but if you believe the eye focus is the issue why not set up an alternate shooting area either on a rear camera button toggle or registered area for expanded spot(small or medium) and switch off eye focus priority...as long as you can get a bead on the birds head you should get the benefit of at least the lighter head area rather than the dark area of the eye..........and still get the eye in focus as the DOF will be adequate at the distances/focal lengths we/I normally shoot birds at.....

Not sure I would agree with the view of in a days shoot you meet every subject and weather condition possible, maybe you do in your location...? The point i make is that at the start of your shoot you set you exposure etc and subsequently, as necessary, adjust for significant changes in the variables you suggest.......you will never be able to set up your camera at a single overall setting for all variables but if you feel you can I wish you well.......

 

[GracieAllen]

David, I forgot. Are you a RAW shooter or JPEG's?

I always shoot RAW.

I certainly don't see all conditions every time, but things do change quite a bit sometimes. I'm going to have to make some changes and confirm what I'm seeing this week - hopefully I'll find some interesting things to photograph.

It's not the camera. It's not the eye focus, or the tracking, or whatever. I've got some thing, or things, set up poorly and I'm going to have to get my act together.

I did a quick test this evening of the zebra levels. Same subject, just looking - with the level at 100 I had a LOT of zebras, at 107+ a lot fewer, and at 109+ a few. I'm going to try some testing this week to see what different size spot areas (large vs small) do, what metering standard vs large does, what spot versus Highlight does. And so on.

It appears that when using Wide, Zone or Center fix, or the tracking for those, the focus is locked to the center - I'm not sure if that means the center of the Zone or the center of the frame - it doesn't say.

But, in spot it's supposed to coordinate with the Focus Point. Except it says "Even if the spot metering position is coordinated with the [Tracking]
start position, it will not be coordinated with the tracking of the subject." So moving or turning or any change of position that changes the light may screw up the metering?

Does the large spot meter read a larger area then the standard spot? I presume it does.
If it coordinates with the focus area does it matter whether or not I use the large spot focus area or the small one? And how does all this work with the eye focus? What does that do to the metering? Hopefully I can find out this week... I may have to buy a stuffed toy!

 

[MrFotoFool]

...It appears that when using Wide, Zone or Center fix, or the tracking for those, the focus is locked to the center - I'm not sure if that means the center of the Zone or the center of the frame - it doesn't say...

I think (?) it means center of the frame. I use the thumb control to move the focus point. And since I have mine set to medium spot (instead of small spot) I do see the eye focus point (when applicable) appear as a smaller square within the medium focus area. So I assume it is metering the larger area covered by the medium spot area. Of course the large spot would meter an even bigger area and might work even better?

 

[Jeff A]

I always shoot RAW.

I certainly don't see all conditions every time, but things do change quite a bit sometimes. I'm going to have to make some changes and confirm what I'm seeing this week - hopefully I'll find some interesting things to photograph.

It's not the camera. It's not the eye focus, or the tracking, or whatever. I've got some thing, or things, set up poorly and I'm going to have to get my act together.

I did a quick test this evening of the zebra levels. Same subject, just looking - with the level at 100 I had a LOT of zebras, at 107+ a lot fewer, and at 109+ a few. I'm going to try some testing this week to see what different size spot areas (large vs small) do, what metering standard vs large does, what spot versus Highlight does. And so on.

It appears that when using Wide, Zone or Center fix, or the tracking for those, the focus is locked to the center - I'm not sure if that means the center of the Zone or the center of the frame - it doesn't say.

But, in spot it's supposed to coordinate with the Focus Point. Except it says "Even if the spot metering position is coordinated with the [Tracking]
start position, it will not be coordinated with the tracking of the subject." So moving or turning or any change of position that changes the light may screw up the metering?

Does the large spot meter read a larger area then the standard spot? I presume it does.
If it coordinates with the focus area does it matter whether or not I use the large spot focus area or the small one? And how does all this work with the eye focus? What does that do to the metering? Hopefully I can find out this week... I may have to buy a stuffed toy!

David, for a RAW shooter, Mark Galer recommends Zebra's @ 109+. That seems to be perfect for my A7 III and my A7 IV.

 

[GracieAllen]

Yeah, after doing a little testing yesterday, I decided 109+ is best. BUT, at that setting I definitely want to control the zebras.

I'm going to a bog today, for 5 days. Hopefully, I'll find cooperative subjects so I can do some experimenting.

 

[pointreyes]

pointreyes - I don't see anything in the Alpha 1 information or help guide that references a dynamic range optimizer. Would it be called something else?

In the A1, it is called D-Range Optimizer buried in the Color/Tone option of the +/- main menu. I left it on Auto but maybe it would be better for you with it off.

 

[GracieAllen]

Ah, then yes, I have it turned off. Though, I thought I read in the help guide that it doesn't actually DO anything with RAW images.

In any case, it's off.

 

[Ziggy]

If you posted some images we could give a relevant diagnosis.

In general you expose for the right so as to minimise highlight detail loss.

And as a rule of thumb, when shooting BIF against a bright sky on the D500 I would add +2EV for a blue sky and more for a silver sky while the A1 needs half a stop less. In both cases, evaluative/matrix metering. With the A1 I only link metering to Spot Small for static subjects and even then the AF area is large enough in many cases to wander in the course of several exposures and create exposure correction work in post.

Another option is to meter off a white area or grey card in ambient light and leave AE off.

 

[GracieAllen]

No pictures ‘til I’m back home next week. I’m not off the edge of the world, but you can see it from here in northern MN. Just putting an entry in the topic will likely take at least an hour and encounter a number of errors.

Anyhow:

In simple situations, things are fine. Put a dragonfly on a blade of grass, surrounded by grass, in the sun, and in Aperture, auto iso, metering large spot, and zone or large spot focus area, it’ll do OK. Gets within about a half stop. Or same dragonfly with blue/gray water behind.

Or a backyard bird on a limb with no bright areas in the background and simple light (usually flat), it’s also reasonably good.


Today I went out to the airport to shoot some of the performers practicing. Camera in Aperture, auto iso, etc (settings recommended for action in some of the videos I watched). blue skies, puffy clouds, sun behind me, bright airplanes (or dark ones). Simplest conditions to shoot airplanes in. Metered in multi, metered in large spot. Used Wide or Large spot for focus, with tracking. Face/eye on with subject to birds.

Of the 1300 or so images I grabbed, it looks like between 2/3 and ¾ are underexposed at LEAST 1.5 stop and a lot are 2.5 or more under.

It appears I’m not going to be able to use the type of settings for “action” others have recommended. Which means going all the way back to manual everything, maybe Auto-ISO, and trying to get a reasonable exposure from the histogram.

Unfortunately, I deliberately left the D500 and Tamron 150-600 G2 I’ve been using for several years home so I’d have to use the Alpha 1. I can try a similar setup to what I used wit that - manual mode, aperture to what I want, shutter speed 1/320 for props 1/2500 for jets, put in auto-ISO, turn on group Focus mode (Zone on Sony?), Matrix (multi on Sony?) or spot meter, and shoot.

I sure hope the Alpha 1 is ISO invariant.

 

[GracieAllen]

It looks, this morning, like I have enough bandwidth to send a couple small images (very small, and very NOT fast, but they went). These are screen captures from Imaging Edge with the data and histogram.

These aren’t from an actual Air Show shoot. They’re me, outside the airport, getting used to panning with airplanes using the Alpha 1. It’s mid-afternoon, so the light is pretty strong and contrasty. Fortunately, I'm not shooting for the show and don't have to provide images to them, which means I can experiment.

Most corrections were able to be made at approximately half the exposure increase Lightroom Auto added – most images of the f-35 were around 2 stops “underexposed”. Correcting them – setting white and black points, adjusting highlights and shadows – required between 1 and and 1.3 stops of exposure and usually needed 90 – 100 shadow adjustment.

The same applied to the Thunderbird images, though in some cases not as much shadow increase was required.

I also figured out early-on that using “std, fast, or faster” for minimum Auto-ISO SS wasn’t going to work. And I’ll need more practice to pan with jets at 1/500 and get sharp images.


Image 1691. Focus spot is directly on the middle of the plane. Brightness of the area where focused is approximately 4 – 7%. Sky directly behind the plane is approximately 27%. Brightest point in the image is 51%. Lightroom Auto does not correct the image, changing exposure only to +.44. Correcting the image exposure actually required approximately 2 stops of exposure. Image correction was with 2 stops of exposure and 100% shadow.

What am I actually metering? The data says metering is large spot. And since metering is linked to Focus Point, shouldn’t it be making the metered area in the focus spot approximately 50% brightness?

Image 1910. Focus point is on very dark area of rear of plane. In Lightroom, the brightness of the area appears to be approximately 3%. Clouds in the background are approximately 33%. Brightest spot in the image is approximately 50%. Bringing the brightest area of clouds to 90% requires 2 stops of exposure increase. Image was reasonably corrected at approximately +1 stop with 100% shadows.

Somewhere between the F-35 and the Thunderbirds I managed to dial in -.3 stops of exposure compensation, so that will show on the Thunderbird images.


Image 2110. On the Thunderbirds, with the focus point on the white planes, I’d expect the spot meter, without exposure compensation, to set the brightness around 50%. Adding somewhere between 1 and 1.5 stops of exposure and Shadows to 100% brought the planes up to “normal”.

Does this mean the camera actually is metering the area only within the focus point?

Image 2139. Focus point is predominantly on the shadowed blue area on the bottom of the wing. In Lightroom, the brightness of the area appears to be approximately 1%. The sky in the background is approximately 21%. In Lightroom, correction can be done with about +1.3 stops exposure and 100% shadows – at a cost of significant noise in shadow areas even at ISO 320.

So, what is the camera actually METERING?

Do I have a bunch of settings wrong, or is this going to be a situation (as I asked last night) where I’ll have to go back to manual for settings, and use the histogram to attempt to correct the exposure for each act as needed? And do I just throw metering back to Multi and focusing to Wide (or zone?) Tracking?

 

[Deleted Member 5003]

It seems you have a misunderstanding on metering, exposure and DOF.........

If you are using spot metering and have focus linked to it, the camera will take the exposure reading
from the spot and from that everything else in the image will be exposed/adjusted accordingly....you are not
going to see the spot exposed individually..........The meter reading within the spot will tell the camera
what general environmental light conditions are(similarily with Multi, average, centered etc etc) so if you have
spot focus and metering on a dark area as you seem to have with the planes images you have provided this
should have caused your camera to expose the plane correctly (ie lighten the plane image and probably
overexpose the highlights of the sky)

You need to understand the metering whatever algorithm you use is using that to dictate the general
environmental light conditions for the entire scene and will treat all light and dark areas accordingly,
your camera will assume you consider the metered area to be the important area for exposure and
set all other areas accordingly irrespective if they are light or dark areas..............

If you are focussing on dark areas of the planes(ie under the wings and shaded from the sun) it surprises
me you are seeing such a high number of underexposed images of the planes particularily........

Your image 1910 and the stats you indicate seems to reflect what you should expect.....................

On DOF, as I am sure you understand , at 150m focus distance on a Sony camera at 600mmm lens ,
and f7.1 you will have around 28m of DOF split around 50/50 in front and behind your focus point and as
you don't provide any indication of the aperture range you were shooting at I assume you are getting good
general focus...............................

 

[GracieAllen]

If you are using spot metering and have focus linked to it, the camera will take the exposure reading
from the spot and from that everything else in the image will be exposed/adjusted accordingly....you are not
going to see the spot exposed individually..........The meter reading within the spot will tell the camera
what general environmental light conditions are(similarily with Multi, average, centered etc etc) so if you have
spot focus and metering on a dark area as you seem to have with the planes images you have provided this
should have caused your camera to expose the plane correctly (ie lighten the plane image and probably
overexpose the highlights of the sky)

This is so far outside my frame of reference I don't know where to go with it. In my understanding based on my DSLR experience

If I have the camera in "Multi", it's going to meter the entire image, based on an algorithm that tries to get a good exposure on what it considers to be the most important areas.

If I have the camera in Spot metering (Standard or Large) it reads what's in the spot and set the exposure based on making that area 50% gray. It doesn't care about what else is in the image.

You're saying it reads the area in the spot, but it DOESN'T base the exposure on the content of that spot? That it treats the spot metering as "general environmental light conditions" and exposes based on something else?

So, metering on a specific area that I want properly exposed, as in image 1691, ISN'T going to expose for that area? Same with 1910 and 2139 (actually 2239)?

I'm going to have to find some documentation that explains what the metering is actually doing - do you have a pointer to where I can find more information on how Sony handles the Spot meter if it's not a spot meter?

I'm also not sure what the DOF information is for. I'm not having a DOF issue, just an exposure one.

 

[MrFotoFool]

Hmmm, very odd. All of these shots seem to be underexposed, but I have no idea why. Though I use an A74 (and Nikon D850), I am virtually certain my camera would have made them lighter, even though I use spot meter mode like you.

I am going to ask an obvious question, just to eliminate all possibilities, so please don't take this the wrong way. Is there any chance your camera's exposure compensation is accidentally set to a minus value? If not, I suppose it is possible the camera's meter is off and needs to go to a repair shop?

 

[GracieAllen]

It definitely HAS been accidentally moved - the operator is notoriously clumsy. But in this was it was at zero for the shots of the F-35. I managed to dial in -.3 before the Thunderbirds, but that's an example of me being clumsy.

I didn't put them in here, but I've got images where the focus was NOT on the airplanes, fell off into the nearby sky or white clouds, and of course, those are ALSO underexposed, though I'd expect that MORE if the spot meter read the WHITE cloud and exposed to make them 50% grey.

I put this out in Mark Galer's Q&A last night, but I'm not going to get anything that'll help with today.

Worst case, for today, I'll have to revert to 1970, manual, match-needle metering "camera", put everything in manual and change aperture and shutter speed (and maybe ISO) to get me a histogram that's at least CLOSE to touching the right edge. Doesn't seem like it should be necessary with this camera and this technology, but...

Once I get home tomorrow maybe I'll try doing a factory reset and see what the camera does as it was in the box... 'Cause it's a nice camera, but at this point, the usefulness is seriously degraded by my difficulty getting reliably good exposures. I can also try shooting the same subject with this and one of the Nikons and see if I get at least SIMILAR readings.

 

[Deleted Member 5003]

I think we are at crossed purposes...but saying essentially the same thing.

Like all the metering modes whether it be average, centre, muti or spot the camera averages exposure within each of those areas
to set the overall image exposure value appropriate for the spot say as near to mid grey as possible(ie neutral exposure) and all
other areas outside of the defined metering area will experience the same level of stop adjustment value whether they be highlights or shadows......

Accordingly if you have a dark metering spot (Below mid grey) requiring 2 stops of exposure to reach mid grey say, the camera will adjust up the overall image exposure by the same degree of +2 stop adjustment as the spot, leaving your spot area properly exposed and any
areas of highlight (originally above mid grey)outside the spot will be further exposed by 2 stops and subject to their original highlight level
might register blow out / zebras exposure levels.

This is the challenge with spot metering, dependant whether you focus on a light area on your subject but within the defined spot area or
equally in a darkened area .......if you do not take into account the overall lighting conditions in the whole image you may see unexpected
outcomes on the final image , particularily in the highlights outside your metered area.

I guess you could say that for effective spot metering it favours overcast conditions or generally neutral ambient light conditions whilst bright
conditions with little midtones or shadows to balance will result in highly elevated exposure levels on the general background to your metered
area...

A bit long winded but hope this goes some way to clarifying what i was trying to say originally.....

Mark Galer has a Sony youtube video on metering modes, if you have not seen it already, which may help. Alternatively Steve Perry i think
has also such a video on his backcountry gallery webpage and he is probably more practical and very much focussed on birding/wildlife......

 

[GracieAllen]

I think I agree. In which case, it seems like I should NOT be getting severely underexposed subjects in images when spot metering completely within the subject.

I got a response from elsewhere that stated that the spot metering is essentially unusable for anything where you're tracking a subject, particularly if the lighting changes since the metering NEVER UPDATES the exposure during the entire time you're chasing a subject at 20 or 30 fps across whatever lighting changes occur?

I'd read that information in the Help Guide, but decided I just didn't understand it, 'cause there's no way they'd build a body that doesn't meter exposure accurately based on the lighting for every shot, regardless of metering mode, whether tracking or not. Right?

 

[spudhead]

It definitely HAS been accidentally moved - the operator is notoriously clumsy. But in this was it was at zero for the shots of the F-35. I managed to dial in -.3 before the Thunderbirds, but that's an example of me being clumsy.

I didn't put them in here, but I've got images where the focus was NOT on the airplanes, fell off into the nearby sky or white clouds, and of course, those are ALSO underexposed, though I'd expect that MORE if the spot meter read the WHITE cloud and exposed to make them 50% grey.

I put this out in Mark Galer's Q&A last night, but I'm not going to get anything that'll help with today.

Worst case, for today, I'll have to revert to 1970, manual, match-needle metering "camera", put everything in manual and change aperture and shutter speed (and maybe ISO) to get me a histogram that's at least CLOSE to touching the right edge. Doesn't seem like it should be necessary with this camera and this technology, but...

Once I get home tomorrow maybe I'll try doing a factory reset and see what the camera does as it was in the box... 'Cause it's a nice camera, but at this point, the usefulness is seriously degraded by my difficulty getting reliably good exposures. I can also try shooting the same subject with this and one of the Nikons and see if I get at least SIMILAR readings.

I have resisted so far butting in but to me I would always shoot in manual anyway everything manual! why tie the cameras hands in aperture? there are no easy answers you just need to use and learn the camera, you can not just read your way out of the issues you have at the moment, it is a journey we all take to find what works for us personally when moving to sony mirrorless, the endless references to Mark Galer and others is fine but all information can only be points of reference. I do not want to enter into a debate or be at odds with other members so I will not say anymore.

 

[GracieAllen]

The page from the Sony manual indicates to me that spot metering should meter only what's in the spot. I don't see anything to indicate that the information is used for some other metering algorithm. And if spudhead is right, that you need to put "everything" manual, a lot of the technology isn't even used. It seems to me I was expecting too much from the technology.

In which case my question has been answered.

 

[Deleted Member 5003]

It is very easy to demonstrate the spot metering function as i have explained .....just link to focus, select a dark subject and you will see the compete image will be lightened and not just the dark spot/subject area. ie the spot metering uses the spot to evaluate lighting conditions and lifts the spot area AND rest of the image by the same level of stops increase.

On the issue of aperture and shutter priority modes I don't agree with the idea that they have no place, they have specific purpose and offer alternate functionality which manual does not. One example would be AUTO ISO+MIN SS.......

For sure you can set manual up to cover most needs but Aperture and Shutter priority offer quick and ready access to specific shooting needs when
set up accordingly, which is no different than setting up for manual as another tool in the toolbox.

The tools and the technology are there, they were given when the camera was bought and if they can enhance your shooting experience it makes sense to use them as added value to manual rather than poor relations of manual.......

The above would be my view, which others may disagree with as they wish.

 

[Deleted Member 5003]

Which brings the spot area to the camera calculated exposure level and the rest of the image to the same increased Stop level which may not correspond to requisite optimum exposure levels for the other non spot shadow,mid tone and/or highlights in the image. .....and hence it is possible to blowout Non spot highlights if there are some highlights in the image already elevated....this is what is experienced in practice also.

The above is what I have previously described......I don’t need any further clarifications

 

[MrFotoFool]

People have different ways of shooting and you have to find what works for you. I am going to offer a counterpoint to the way of shooting posted here that says always use manual mode. If you do static subjects, like landscape or architecture, shooting in manual expsosure mode is fine. In fact, that is what I do. But for wildlife or other moving subjects, I find aperture priority is best. From what I have seen, so does just about every professional (and amateur) wildlife photographer out there. It would be impossible to follow fast moving action and change the exposure as it happens.

The orignal poster stated this worked fine for her with her SLR's and it is only her Sony mirrorless that is giving her underexposure. I use this mode on my Sony mirrorless (and my Nikon SLR) and my shots come out properly exposed, so I am not sure why hers are not? As I stated before, it might be worth taking the camera to a repair shop to test if it is properly calibrated.

 

[GracieAllen]

Actually, Gracie Allen was also a much-loved brown tabby that we had for many years. She does most of my online shopping - though Wells Fargo refused to give her a credit card of her own, and also regularly receives packages! She also hangs out on social media and attends most of the Zoom meetings into which I get dragged. I was going to have her teach the 13-week Lightroom class to a bunch of photographers, but they were already confused enough!

I too, don't want to get in the middle of anything, but Deleted Member 5003 has spent a lot of time answering newby questions that have saved me countless hours while trying to adapt to this technology. I owe him and everyone else that's helped me in here a BIG THANK YOU!


Back to metering...... OK, the spot meter is a spot meter. Which makes it like the spot meter on all my DSLR cameras.

And the spot meter, linked to the focus point of the Spot Focus Area (used small and used large), was what I used in the images I put in here. And they're significantly underexposed. At the time, I was in Aperture mode and Auto ISO, so if the spot meter was working when I put it on a dark gray airplane, it SHOULD have given me a medium (50%) gray airplane. It didn't.

3 of the 4 images, in which a gray airplane used the spot focus area, and spot metering are underexposed. The 4th, of white airplanes, SHOULD be slightly underexposed 'cause it should be trying to make the white airplanes medium gray.

So, I have a moving subject - in this case an airplane. It's flying around, moving between patches of blue sky, extremely white clouds and less white clouds. And I've told the camera it's a bird and to track it, so it is. As the plane moves through these different areas, the background changes but the airplane's brightness doesn't (in reality the 3 images are from different passes, but I can probably dig up a couple from the same pass where the light on the plane doesn't change). In all those cases, the airplane SHOULD be properly exposed regardless of the background.

It's not.

According to a response I received in a different forum, TRACKING causes the spot meter to ONLY read the initial exposure, and ignore any changes of brightness of the area where the spot focus area is for the duration of the series. As if AEL happens with the initial reading and it stays that way through the entire series of images?

In the Help Guide, I found a Note:
Even if the spot metering position is coordinated with the [Tracking] start position, it will not be coordinated with the tracking of the subject.

Which seems contrary to what you would WANT to happen since tracking almost any moving subject while shooting is likely to result in changes to the brightness of the subject. So tracking is exactly when you WANT the spot meter to re-meter for every shot as the spot focus area tracks the subject through all the different brightness values? Otherwise, turning Tracking on makes the spot meter on the focus point largely useless.

What am I missing?